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Walter Haugen's avatar

Well firstly, thanks Ugo, for talking about solutions to problems, instead of buying into the false dichotomy of problems vs predicaments and solutions vs managed outcomes. I get sooooo tired of this and I go head-to-head with people who buy into this nonsense nearly every day on social media. They make a pronouncement of, "That is not a problem. It is a predicament." Then they stand back and say, "Hah!", as if that simple statement wins the day. Of course they never dive any deeper and when I criticize them, they just keep saying the same thing over and over again. Since you are a real scientist and not a finance guy trying to make money on collapse like Chris Martenson, perhaps that is why you see through it.

On the thick layer of mouse pellets problem, this is not necessarily as bad as you might think. I grew up on a dairy farm in Minnesota, USA, and during the winter it is below zero Fahrenheit much of the time. The cows were in the barn all day except for when they were let out for the daily gutter cleaning. [Side Note: My dad died of his third heart attack in January seventy years ago while cleaning barns one day. He made it to the house before he collapsed though.] The calves were in a pen inside the barn all winter and the accumulated manure and straw got packed down so that - even with high ceilings in the barn - the calves were rubbing their backs on the ceiling by spring. This is when I had to clean the pen. I remember clearly one day when I was 10 or 12 and had to do this. I remember it clearly because this is the very day I learned the secret of manual labor. I took a look at the meter high wall of packed manure/straw in front of me. Then I started at one end and picked and picked and picked at it. By the end of the day I had come to the other end of the pen. I then spread out some clean straw and brought the calves back in. The calves did all right under these conditions and it didn't surprise me that in Calhoun's experiments the space limitation was more detrimental than any toxic contamination due to the excess packed down manure/bedding. The bedding may be the mitigating factor in both these cases. It should be noted that in modern CAFOs in the US, there is no bedding (cost/benefit analysis no doubt) and the cattle are in straight manure up to their flanks all day long, which requires the massive amounts of antibiotics fed to them in their feed and even periodic injections. The point is there are multiple levels of bad husbandry.

I will read The End of Population Growth and I sympathize with your efforts to get it published through what are commonly called "Vanity Publishers." All three of my books are self-published on Amazon through CreateSpace. And I did check out other publishers before then. Yes, Amazon is an evil corporation, but so is Wal-Mart and most of the corporations that provide food and basic necessities for everyone in developed countries. One must do what one can and it is important to get the word out to people so they can develop their own alternatives.

David Packer's avatar

First, I wonder if a problem with the high likelihood of no solution no matter how much (fossil fuel) energy we throw at it, ie, a conundrum, is exactly what we should worry about the most (at a societal scale at least). Can we accept that not every such problem has a solution, at least not one under our complete control?

But in the case of Calhoun vs. Limits to Growth, the degree of apparent acceptance seems to be inherent in the seriousness and relevance of the study, ie, one is non-threatening and the other is not. People can pass off a mouse study as, well, about hapless mice, without rejecting the intuitively comfortable idea that overcrowding can lead to bad outcomes (think of the migrant prisons of the Trump administration or the ease with which disease can spread in large cities). However, The Limits to Growth is about the actual trajectory of human societies and is the work of scientists at one of our most prestigious institutions. It's unavoidable seriousness requires a serious repudiation if it clashes with prevailing mental models of the future and the cherished beliefs (progress through markets and capitalism) of today's high priests of economics. So there is an element of tautology or feedback in which the degree of perceived seriousness begets an equally serious or hostile, if misguided, response from those threatened by the study"s premises or conclusions. Clearly this negative feedback loop does not bode well for our ability to manage complex problems that are not amenable to the types of solutions at which humans excel.

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